[Ryan104]

Maybe KKS should have allowed KFs to drive in their club series and they could have made some more money for support, yet they decided to ban them.
If its coz they are too powerful, then thats no excuse coz we have weight limits.

With minimal karters in an open series, obviously you would make way to cater for all, by setting limitations for different engines.

So is power of the engine the reason for why kfs were banned?... surely not, i dont think so, i think they didnt want our support or to allow the engine to develop in Malaysia.

For the last few seasons we had a comer blowing the field away, and then a large group of KFs come along and all the sudden they are banned. Extra support gets thrown away basically in this such case.

[James Leong]

Whether KKS want or do not want to include KF in the Club series is entirely the perogative of the club. I would not want to venture into making a statement on their behalf.

As I have pointed out in my earlier comments, as your KF importer to chip in to the fund to organise a KF series. It is better this way than to write a thousand words and no one is doing anything about it.

You have once said that AKOC races are available for the KF and they are so well organised these days, then that is also one option to make use of the engines.

My team have no wish to enter AKOC at all and the option of getting KF engines will not be there but I am prepared to chip in for the series if others do the same. The offer still stands.

James Leong

[Ryan104]

my post was suppose to go in 'AKOC in malaysia', i must have clicked 'new topic'. Can you delete this thread ill put it back into where i wanted it to go, thanks.

[Ryan104]

ok i have re positioned my post so delete this thread when your ready.cheers

[Alex Ritchie]

My two sen worth:

The KKS series should be a good opportunity for all Malaysian-based drivers to run whatever engines and karts they have, within reason i.e. no shifters, no 100 cc...

Aim should be good fun at minimal expenditure.

Like 2006, each class should run qualifying, two heats and one final, all in one day. So that probably means a total of 4 classes only.

Different weight limits for the various engine types to try to promote close racing - this will inevitably be open to gripes, but that's life...

MRF tyres only for all classes (except for Cadets?) to keep the costs down.

For KKS members only, no need for AAM license

With the above in mind my proposal is:

(i) Formula 125 Open TnG

KF, Parilla and the like 170 kg
Rotax Senior 165 kg
ROK Senior 160 kg
For age 15 and above

(ii) Formula 125 Junior Open TnG

KF 150 kg
Rotax Junior 145 kg
ROK Junior 140 kg
For ages 12 - 16

(iii) Formula Cadet

...I leave it to the parents and Club to decide, but in the above spirit - Micro Max, Comer 85, Comer 80 and Comer 60 should be allowed, with appropriate weights

(iv) Rotax Novice

For age 15 and above, holding "novice" status - less than one year racing experience, never been on the podium yet in RMC, AMC or AKOC. Chassis at least three years old, Rotax Max Senior engines of P4 and older. Weight 165 kg.

The aim is for young adults, especially the twentysomethings, to have a minimal cost entry to this great sport, with maximum fun. It will create a new pool of drivers for RMC next year and provide an outlet for used equipment for those already running in RMC, so they can buy new stuff for next year!

What do the other members think?

[Jules]

Alex,

good idea and just to share our experience from 2006.....which Mikko can re-confirm.

ROK weight limit was 155kg
Max Senior limit was 165kg.....

In addition, for other 125cc TnG engines, a limit of 175kgs ( like DD2 which has a 32.5bhp engine ) is not unrealistic.

Just some ideas....

[Ryan104]

Alex, what you said is 100% correct and I couldnt agree more. The kks series used to be a very strong series when it used to be an open class. It was a very sociable event and fun to drive in.

That is how you get more karts on the grid, which is ultimately the goal right.

[Mikko Nassi]

Although this isn't the place for any official discussions - those should be done directly with the club it is nice to get some discussions going. My opinion is that the KKS Senior 125 Open series is flawed and has been for a long time - which is why it lost drivers. I've mentioned this to the club as well. Although their last year's regulations do seem to be a bit better stating that the engines have to be pretty much stock standard. I'm not sure if these were the regs used in 2006 already or not.

I was doing 48 second laptimes at Sepang in the 125 open (results from one race HERE) - which could just as well have been just "open" because the cubic capacity of the engines was never checked. This is not because I was driving 1-2 seconds faster than anyone else but because it was a completely open category with the same weight for all engines. I used a Parilla Leopard - this was before KF engines were available.

What happens with an open category? Costs get very, very high, and drivers leave.

Last year the regulations were actually changed so that engines had to be in pretty much stock-form, but only one driver put in an entry so it was scrapped, perhaps because nobody even noticed the change in regulations?

The correct way in my opinion is to do it like they do in the "Tag USA" series. Engine importers can submit an engine to be used in the series, some engine types are allowed some aren't. Some engines they have approved are for example Vortex TT (176kg), Sonic TX125 (176kg), Parilla Leopard(165kg), Rotax Max (165kg), they haven't approved any KF2 engines, or the Super ROK perhaps because the importer hasn't brought them in or because they don't want engines that powerful. I imagine they might approve KF4 engines depending on how powerful they are - I think KF4 engines might fit in quite nicely against Rotax and Leopards. For those that don't know KF4 is the base package for the KF-engines and is meant to be a senior "hobby karter" engine like the Rotax Max. A KF2 engine can fairly easily be changed to KF4.

The engine importers submit the engine to TAG USA for approval, benchmarking (for minimum weight) and technical specs are included in the regulations for the engine. The engines have to remain exactly as they were submitted for approval within certain tolerances. The importer pays a fee to get the engine approved for the series.

my post was suppose to go in 'AKOC in malaysia', i must have clicked 'new topic'. Can you delete this thread ill put it back into where i wanted it to go, thanks.

KF engines in KKS events is a completely different topic to AKOC in Malaysia so I split the topics to make it a bit easier to follow along .

[Mikko Nassi]

The kks series used to be a very strong series when it used to be an open class.

That is how you get more karts on the grid, which is ultimately the goal right.

In 2006 round 4, 5, and 6 for the 125 open category there were 6, 7, and 7 entries respectively. Not very strong. It started off strong with 16ish in the first 3 rounds but after getting beaten by faster engines (not necessarily faster drivers) those that weren't up the front and didn't have the money dropped out. The "open" has to be open (approved) engine, NOT open modification imo.

Which is why strict regulations and proper weight penalties have to be imposed in my opinion. Engine importer pays for the testing and contributes towards the series running costs. The testing involves an on-track test to set the weight limit, as well as a sample of engines submitted for measuring to establish the regulations.

The TAG USA concept seems very good imo and would be a great concept to copy.

So is power of the engine the reason for why kfs were banned?... surely not, i dont think so, i think they didnt want our support or to allow the engine to develop in Malaysia.

KF engines aren't the only engines that were not allowed. IIRC even before KF engines existed some other engines were banned because they would have been too powerful.

[Alex Ritchie]

Although this isn't the place for any official discussions - those should be done directly with the club it is nice to get some discussions going. My opinion is that the KKS Senior 125 Open series is flawed and has been for a long time - which is why it lost drivers. I've mentioned this to the club as well. Although their last year's regulations do seem to be a bit better stating that the engines have to be pretty much stock standard. I'm not sure if these were the regs used in 2006 already or not.

I was doing 48 second laptimes at Sepang in the 125 open (results from one race HERE) - which could just as well have been just "open" because the cubic capacity of the engines was never checked. This is not because I was driving 1-2 seconds faster than anyone else but because it was a completely open category with the same weight for all engines. I used a Parilla Leopard - this was before KF engines were available.

What happens with an open category? Costs get very, very high, and drivers leave.

Last year the regulations were actually changed so that engines had to be in pretty much stock-form, but only one driver put in an entry so it was scrapped, perhaps because nobody even noticed the change in regulations?

Last year was strange because the KKS series was run together with RMC. The Senior class had one weight limit for all engines [165 kg] and the tyre rules confused everybody, including the Club. In Kota Bharu where AMC, RMC and KKS were run at the same time you could use either 6 MRF (KKS), 6 Mojo (RMC) or 5 Mojo (AMC). I believe everyone, except one, chose to run RMC/AMC.

The Junior class was for JICA, so no takers.

As for Jules's comment, I believe that series was run by the ROK distributor...

I did say weight limits would be a source of gripes...

[Jules]

As for Jules's comment, I believe that series was run by the ROK distributor...

yes, it was run in 2006, promoted by City Karting - the ROK distributor. SIGH!

[Ryan104]

when i first started karting, kks club series was going very well, that was 2004 even with grids of like 25. Yeh after 2006 it started to die down heaps as we can see.

Yeh when i talk about open engines series, i essentially mean to have all the weight limits in place and so on with no mods. It should be 'a given' to have the limits of weight and mods considered for a series in my opinion.

[Alex Ritchie]

The engine importers submit the engine to TAG USA for approval, benchmarking (for minimum weight) and technical specs are included in the regulations for the engine. The engines have to remain exactly as they were submitted for approval within certain tolerances. The importer pays a fee to get the engine approved for the series.

So if the importer does not do it then the engines are not permitted...seems fair enough to me. Let's hope the Club takes these suggestions into consideration.

[Mikko Nassi]

The reason the KKS series worked in 2004 and 2005 with ok grids (veterans ran together with seniors for 20-something grids) was because not many had gone out and spent the money (I thought about running a different carb, airbox, and exhaust on the Rotax for example but that would've ruined the series very quickly). As soon as a handful of quick engines showed up the numbers dropped dramatically.

It should be 'a given' to have the limits of weight and mods considered for a series in my opinion.

Should be imo as well, but KKS has never run different weights for different engines. Now is a good time to start thinking about regulations for next year though.

For weights to be established there are costs involved though - and the TAG method is a great way. The importer of the engine that wants his engine to run in the series pays for the costs involved in the benchmark testing, and possibly contributes towards the series organizing fees or prize fund as well, perhaps as a percentage of how many engines are the importer's engines.

Then of course after a weight is established with proper testing there might be a need to re-evaluate the weights slightly later. If the weights are set without proper testing then the weights will almost certainly have to be re-evaluated often making engine owners unhappy. For example if a Super ROK engine is approved and at 170kg it is 1 sec faster than a Rotax at 165 it might have to be pushed up to 185kg to be on par....

I personally don't like racing in multi-manufacturer engine categories a lot unless they are at the same weight and manufactured to the same regulations and tightly controlled such as the old ICA or the current KF2 in Europe, and you also need decent numbers to make it interesting for me, and most importantly they all score points towards the same championship (which is why getting the weights correct is so important in a weight-controlled series) - not 3 championships in one grid.

Another interesting option for a multi-engine category that is used in Thailand in their "Tag" in addition to different weight minimums for different engines weight penalties for drivers. If a driver wins a race (I can't remember the exact kgs), he has to add for example 4kg for the next race, and then can take it off again if he doesn't win the next round.

So if the importer does not do it then the engines are not permitted...seems fair enough to me. Let's hope the Club takes these suggestions into consideration.

Yeah - which is why in the USA and Thailand (they've adopted a lot of the USA-Tag concept) tag series' there aren't 15 different engines types that are allowed, but rather 5 or so different engines because the importers saw the benefit of being involved in the series.

[JohnKing6]

The reason the KKS series worked in 2004 and 2005 with ok grids (veterans ran together with seniors for 20-something grids) was because not many had gone out and spent the money (I thought about running a different carb, airbox, and exhaust on the Rotax for example but that would've ruined the series very quickly). As soon as a handful of quick engines showed up the numbers dropped dramatically.

Absolutely right. In 2004 I won the KKS veterans and also came close to winning the seniors (because they were the same race I got points in both) with a completely standard Rotax engine. In 2005 we ran the veterans separately and I got blown away by Berndt and his (now my) funny Rotax engine, even though I spent RM8000++ on a Leopard.

So, while I agree that we should allow most engines to run, we'll need to be smart with weights. We should certainly have a success ballast for cases where one driver dominates and the club should also have the right to change the weights in the middle of the series if one engine looks to have an unfair advantage. 3 or 4 kilos isn't enough - I've been 6/7 kilos over the wieght limit and it doesn't make much difference. You really need to put 10 on the winner, 5 on the runner up to make a real difference.

The real problem comes with funny engines like mine - it's a 125 and it's a rotax but it puts out 34+ hp and so needs "special" rules - or be banned completely I ran one round of the ROK series in 2006 and was allowed to enter the Rotax and Open races with the same engine. Needless to say the Rotax class was a joke - I was over a second quicker than anyone else.

But, we do need something that will bring everyone together. Imagine how much fun it would be to see all 27 drivers who showed up for the different Rotax rounds plus the extra 6/7 people in the Yamaha series plus a few more that have got unused karts at home. And that's without combining the masters!

One final thing - I 100% support Alex's suggestion of a novice class. I've got 2 MBA chassis and Rotax engines that qualify under Alex's rules (although one of them is the one I used last weekend so it's not slow!) so if this happens, I'll run them for people at minimum cost.