[Mike]

This thread is now in the danger of looking at individual drivers when it should be dealing with the question of a level playing field for all the drivers.

I appreciate what Alex has said and would however like to clarify some of the comments that he has made.

The engine that was used in Saraburi was one of the spare engines that was not used in the Rotax Max in Malaysia. It worked better for us in Thailand.

In the Malaysian Rotax Max series, Bryan won the championship without winning a single race save for the pre-final in round 5 when it rained, but won rather on a string of consistent performances throughout the championship.

In this instance, we have our team RL Karting to thank as they worked very hard to often find the .2 or .3 sec from the chassis as I am sure all teams do.

As such, I did not see any statement from Brakedisc which alludes to the fact that Bryan was not legal and as such no apology is needed. Some misinformed statements about others maybe, but no offence to Bryan. Thank you!

During the world finals, there were 4 Malaysian juniors running, Calvin, Bryan, Afiq and Ryan. Of the lot Calvin was clearly the best performer from the word go.

Calvin qualified directly into the finals, and Bryan and Ryan made it into the second chance heat. In the second chance heat Bryan set the 4th fastest time but unfortunately started too far behind due to a time penalty to get into the top 6. A wonderful learning experience no doubt.

While we were in the same team as Calvin, our set ups were different, primarily due to the fact that Bryan is much lighter than Calvin and we were carrying much more dead weight. Even sprockets we used were different. In effect, not much help!

It is only fair to point out that Mikko posted some really quick times in the early qualifying but bent his chassis in one of the early heats and suffered from then on.

All this is to show that people sometimes shoot from the hip and make conclusions that are far from the truth.

Lastly and coming back to the real issue at hand, James, as you often say, this is your series, your championship, therefore when good suggestions are made, it does not mean that your current system is wrong, the key work is improvement.

I would disregard all the personal attacks as juvenile, but some good and sound suggestions are being made and from what I can see it is being made in the interest of improvement and not to attack you personally.

I still say that complete surprise checks from time to time is the way to go to keeping everyone on their toes and I am sure that James will willingly provide the beer and Bar B Q while they wait for the results.

[brakedisc]

Well said Mike. James, I dont have anything against you or your team personally but only looking from a competitor's point of view. If you can see through that, I am sure your RMC race series can only get stronger and batter.

[Alex Ritchie]

I am confused. "karting" wrote:

i do agree with brakedisc.we should check the engines after the race.i would say many people would doubt his integrity.he has a racing team and some sources said that their engines are illegal.lets take an example,last year everybody was so close in the championship.and look what happen in the world final,only calvin made it to the final.what happen to ryan ritchie,mikko nassi and so on?in malaysia they were quick,and when given equal engines they were no where.its just an observation.anyway,we have a choice,choose to bring the standard down or bring the level up.

I commented that "karting" was insulting Bryan, Ryan and Afiq by making a strange comparison about the relative performances of Calvin, Ryan, Mikko "and so on" in the World Final and the Malaysian championship.

Then Mike wrote:

As such, I did not see any statement from Brakedisc which alludes to the fact that Bryan was not legal and as such no apology is needed. Some misinformed statements about others maybe, but no offence to Bryan. Thank you!


And brakedisc replied:

Well said Mike. ..


So does it mean that brakedisc and karter are actually the same person?

[Alex Ritchie]

i do agree with brakedisc.we should check the engines after the race.i would say many people would doubt his integrity.he has a racing team and some sources said that their engines are illegal.lets take an example,last year everybody was so close in the championship.and look what happen in the world final,only calvin made it to the final.what happen to ryan ritchie,mikko nassi and so on?in malaysia they were quick,and when given equal engines they were no where.its just an observation.anyway,we have a choice,choose to bring the standard down or bring the level up.

I have taken a closer look at what karting wrote and I must apologise for misreading it earlier. Looking at the context karting clearly meant to exclude Bryan from the accusation of cheating but he or she must have thought that Ryan was part of the Kartmore team and therefore using an illegal engine too.

So let us look at their relative performances in RMC Round 5 and the World Final by comparing their fastest laps:

Junior Final, RMC Round 5:

Calvin 51.519
Ryan 51.595 (gap to Calvin +0.076)
Afiq 51.599 (+0.080)
Bryan 51.859 (gap +0.340)


At the World Finals the Malaysian boys were split into different groups for the heats - Calvin and Ryan were in Group D, Afiq in Group C and Bryan in Group A. Their fastest laps were as follows:

Heat 2, Junior C & D:

Calvin 59.653
Ryan 1:00.165 (+0.512)
Afiq 1:00.229 (+0.576)

Heat 4, Junior B & D

Calvin 1:00.282
Ryan 1:00.588 (+0.306)

Heat 5, Junior A & D

Calvin 59.275
Ryan 1:00.380 (+1.105)
Bryan 1:00.728 (+1.1453)


So what can we conclude about cheating in RMC Malaysia from the figures above? If we look at the changes in the gaps, Ryan's "lost performance" because he had to use a standard chassis and engine relative to Calvin was between +0.230 and +0.929, Afiq's relative drop was +0.432 and Bryan's was +1.118.

Based on karting's criterion the correct conclusion should have been that Bryan cheated in RMC Malaysia because he showed the largest performance drop relative to Calvin!


Absurd![/b]

[Alex Ritchie]

This will be my final post in this thread as we have been splitting hairs in some of the posts, including my own.

At the end of the day I believe it is most appropriate to quote James Leong since it best sums up the situation. Any system can be subverted if the people involved in policing it are dishonest. It all hangs on their integrity. In RMC Malaysia and AMC James is the judge, jury and executioner.

On Friday, 2nd May in Coimbatore James said the following to me "Alex, this is my series. If people are not happy with the way I run it, don't race-lah. I couldn't care less."

I remember it word for word because James said it loudly, repeatedly and clearly. So the ball is firmly in your court Mr. Leong.

[Mike]

Quite frankly Alex, it was not brakedisc or karting who brought up Bryan's name into this discussion but rather you.

Since I may have been mistaken into reading that you meant brakedisc and not karting , I have taken the time to read what karting has said and I still believe that he has not slighted Bryan.

In my humble opinion, this forum is a wonderful channel for all karters to contribute their thoughts to the betterment of the sport and this purpose would not be served if it was not conducted in a sporting manner.

I have my self wondered if brakedisc, sprocket and all the various parts of the kart are one and the same person but this is a forum and it allows him/her to do so, and as Gary80 has so aptly pointed out, if you have something worthwhile to say, at least put your own name on it.

That is the reason why, if these people direct unpleasant comments at individuals, disregard it,as it is not a fair comment.

Now coming back to the point of this thread, in the interest of promoting a level playing field for the sport, I have said and I will repeat my offer to open up Bryan's engine to be checked immedietly after a race to any competitor in the same class provided he is willing to open his/her engine up for us to likewise inspect. If this is so and all the competitors can agree to this, I am sure that in the near future, there will be no more talk of drivers winning on illegal engines and everyone can concentrate on developing their driving skills and chassis set ups.

Perhaps James would be kind enough to bring Mr. Elvis the technical advisor for Rotax as he did for India for one of the races in Malaysia.

[drewcrombie]

Rather than all of the various complicated inspection approaches that have been suggested, except perhaps the random scrutineering checks (which does seem like a good idea if the kart numbers are drawn out of a hat), why not stick to the current system of complainant protests but have a post race protest board where prospective protesters can alert others that they are protesting and have any similarly aggrieved drivers add their name to the protest and split the cost. (if joint protests are allowable).

Flame away....

Andrew

[Mike]

I do hope that the other forumers will forgive me for prolonging a rather specific topic but some insidious accusations are being made and it is only fair that we look at the total picture.

Very often, selective information can be used to draw conclusions that the writer wants to use to drive home a point.

As this issue deals with the RMC of 2007, let us just not show specific information to argue or prove a point but let us all look at the results as a whole as we all know that motor racing is not like a balance sheet but a whole string of performances.

This will be a rather long post as I will include both RMC and the world final results so that wecan truly get an idea of what transpired.

RMC Round 1 Sepang
QF H1 H2 PF F
Bryan 51.83 52.12 52.49 52.73 52.45
Ryan 51.47 51.89 52.00 52.27 52.19

Round 2 Kelantan

Bryan 52.11 52.50 52.83 52.69 52.26
Ryan 52.97 52.80 53.05 52.84 52.78
Calvin 51.84 52.11 52.33 52.06 51.94

RMC Round 3 Sepang (Wet Race)

Bryan 1.04.53 52.79 53.14 53.99 1.05.49
Ryan 1.05.00 53.31 53.64 54.36 1.05.00

RMC Round 4 Sepang (Wet Race)

Bryan 1.03.94 1.04.57 52.65 1.00.98 1.04.02
Ryan 1.05.14 1.05.17 52.89 1.00.74 1.05.06
Calvin 1.04.34 1.05.56 52.53 59.57 1.04.22

RMC Round 5 Sepang (Dry Race)

Bryan 51.85 51.93 52.11
Ryan 51.59 51.64 51.82
Calvin 51.59 51.53 51.62

Mylaps only provided reults for H2 to final for round 5.
Calvin did not race RMC Round 1 & 3

Result for the Rotax Max Grand Finals as follows:

Qualifying Heats

Bryan 1.00.411 (57)
Ryan 1.00.493 (60)
Calvin 59.708 (16)

Race 1 (A+B)+ Race 2 (C+D)

Bryan(32) 1.00.265
Ryan (26) 1.00.165
Calvin (4) 59.65

Race 3 (A+D)+ Race 4

Bryan (24) 1.00.324
Ryan (24) 1.00.588
Calvin (15) 1.00.282

Race 5

Bryan (27) 1.00.728
Ryan (35) 1.00.380
Calvin (18) 59.275

Second Chance Heat

Bryan 59.526
Ryan Crashed at start
Fastest Time of Race 59.434

Now let me analyse the results in total based on the pace from the RMC against the world finals

In the two dry races at Sepang, Bryan was consistently clocking between .3 to .5 seconds slower than Ryan. In round 5, when Calvin was racing Ryan was within .15 of Calvin's time.

The only time when Bryan was faster than Ryan was in Kota Baru and when the race was wet where Bryan was consistently faster than Ryan and in one or two instances Calvin but I reiterate the danger of just looking at one heat.

I leave it to you all to make the conclusion on the equation of engine power, driving ability, kart set up when racing in the wet and at more technical tracks with less straights. I am not so presumptous as to make conclusions like that whether absurd or not.

During the world finals, Bryan was basically on par or within .1 sec of Ryan with the execption of heat 5 which was so eagerly pointed out. We make no excuses, for such is the nature of the beast in motor racing. We had no broken ribs or wrists or rented chassis to blame, but I should point out that I put the finishing order in brackets and in that race Bryan finished 27th to Ryan's 35th.

Again, I reiterate not wanting to use this forum as a personal soap box and do apologise for having to take you through this long winded post, but with due respect, I did want to have the opportunity to provide a full picture with substantiated numbers to this issue and not just specific ones to win an argument.

Thank you all for your indulgence!

[brakedisc]

I am almost sorry for starting this post..... so lets cut the bull, what are we gonna do and where do we go from here? Constructive suggestions please.

[brakedisc]

This will be my final post in this thread as we have been splitting hairs in some of the posts, including my own.

At the end of the day I believe it is most appropriate to quote James Leong since it best sums up the situation. Any system can be subverted if the people involved in policing it are dishonest. It all hangs on their integrity. In RMC Malaysia and AMC James is the judge, jury and executioner.

On Friday, 2nd May in Coimbatore James said the following to me "Alex, this is my series. If people are not happy with the way I run it, don't race-lah. I couldn't care less."

I remember it word for word because James said it loudly, repeatedly and clearly. So the ball is firmly in your court Mr. Leong.

Come to think about it? Should you karters out there care too? After all if you dont participate, then the series will just go down the drain.
Do we need this?
My heart goes out to them, all the Alex, Mike, other parents and racers who had spent so much time, money and effort supporting this series.
James, I hope that you really dont meant it when making that statement.This arrogance on your part is uncalled for even if you are under immense emotional pressure at that time.
If you really dont care why dont just pack it up and let someone else do it.
Its only a few wasted years of your time.

[gp8]

Brakedisc and others, go to Australia and run rotax, particularly junior rotax, with them for a few meetings and see how its done there. After that you'll be damn glad you've got James running the system as well as he does.

And if you really believe you've been beaten by an engine, go buy that engine.

[James Leong]

Personally, I think this thread should stop before it gets out of hand. I think everyone wants the best system and I do for sure want it. I have tried my best to make it a series that would be benefical to all drivers. In fact this is the only series that is currrently running. Last year there were no sponsors but still the show went on. This year I was lucky to get some support from PLUS but even then it is not enough to cover the expenses which meant KRS is actually sponsoring the race to get it going. Tyres stock takes an immense amount out of the kitty and what with payment upfront to the club for organising the race.

I would be happy if there is someone who would like to take over and run the series but at the end of the day the question asked would be " What's in it for me!!!"

I hope you can understand the frustrations and disappointments when things are thrown at you. Sometimes I wonder why I am doing it. Is it for the money - if there was that much money to be made or is it for the love of the sport. Why does a 60 year old - bald, thick headed old man want to carry on doing this. I am wondering??

I have taken all the suggestions and advice into heart and will do something about the rest of the rounds. For AMC round in Indonesia, I have asked Rotax to release Elvis to be the scrutineer. He will be in Malaysia a few days earlier and I am planning to have a two days seminar for all drivers and mechanics on the finer points of engine re-building and understanding of the rotax engine. I hope by this there will be less accusation of engine modifications and get on with the racing. Those who are interested to attend please submit your names to Mikko Nassi who will co-ordinate.

I do hope with this announcement this thread should stop or at least persons writing should be more concern about the feelings of others. I do think we all want to be able to be a family of racers and not enemies.

James Leong

[Gary80]

I think the best way to stop the accusations and pointing the finger at others on this forum is for the administrator to only allow writers who will identify themselves and not post any comments made by people using false names.

I am sure anyone who has something worth while to contribute has no problem to be identified, and those who are making all these accusations would no longer be prepared to do it if they are identified.

[Mikko Nassi]

I think the best way to stop the accusations and pointing the finger at others on this forum is for the administrator to only allow writers who will identify themselves and not post any comments made by people using false names.

I am sure anyone who has something worth while to contribute has no problem to be identified, and those who are making all these accusations would no longer be prepared to do it if they are identified.

Good post Gary. From now on any even marginally accusatory statements from anonymous posters will be deleted.

Discussion on issues (even sensitive ones) is welcomed; baseless accusatory statements particularly from anonymous posters are not.

For those who wish to change their username please don't create a new account - rather just send me a private message with the name you want your account to be changed to.

A hint: the private messaging system is also a great system to get personal feuds dealt with.

This thread is now locked as it isn't going anywhere and hasn't been going anywhere for a while.