Hmmm...this thread started out as an enquiry about KT engines but has become a general discussion of engine rules.

Here's my two cents worth then: the 125 Open category should provide an opportunity for racers to run whatever engines they have in their garages. Thus, it could be a relatively low cost way to have some serious fun.

Unfortunately, racers being racers, most of us would run only if we have a chance of winning. Very few racers would race "just for fun" to make up the numbers, without regard for how competitive we would be.

The result, as Mikko has pointed out, is that a few would spend quite a lot of money to win while the rest would sit it out. Last year's KKS series was an extreme example of this. The vast majority of Juniors, Seniors, Masters and Veterans decided to compete in RMC so the Open categories were cancelled for lack of entries. I feel sorry for the handful of drivers who intended to compete with non-Rotax engines as their efforts (and money) were completely wasted.

One way out of this dilemma would be to set weight limits for the different engines. [Thailand has specified about 10 engines, with different weights for each type!] In the Junior category, for example, the weights could be KF3 150 kg, Rotax Junior 145 kg and ROK Junior 140 kg. The podium finishers would be difficult to predict and lots of people would be out there having fun.

Well Alex, I could not agree with you more. However having said that, it is not Rotax policy to have RMC races mixed with other makes. As a result KKS is planning to run a 5 rounds KKS Championship with Cadet class 60cc, Junior in KT 100 any type electric start, pulley start or outboard motor start. The engines can be purchased from any where and does not restrict that it MUST be purchased from certain suppliers!! All that is required that it must be stock standard. That's was the initial discussion on the rules. The other class is the 125 Open class which I understand will not allow the homologated or the KF engines to be used. Sorry lah for those who purchased KF engines and were lead to believe that there will be a race for them.

Tyres I believe will be the MRF only as this is a KKS race and they are the distributor of the MRF. Dont let anyone talk you into believing that so and so is the distributor of MRF tyres in Malaysia. There is only one importer and that is KKS. Tyres comes with the KKS logo on the tyres. If someone sold you a set of tyres claiming to be legal - check to see if the KKS logo is there. If there is none, sorry you cannot use those tyres for the series.

I think the biggest problem in our karting circle is that everyone is thinking of making money out of the sport and not having the passion for it to push it in the way that it should. I would certainly like to see cadet karting increasing as well as making it as cheap as possible for the parents. I want parents who are really interested in getting their children into karting to talk to me and the club KKS to make some arrangements on arrive and drive. We really need to develop the grassroot.

James Leong

I am assuming that the junior KT100 has to have a clutch fitted if the requirement is for some type of "non-push" start?

Yes, it does have to have a clutch fitted, usually the kt100 is fitted with a horstman hdc-5 or some sort of tomar clutch.

What are you in it for then James?

How? Non of you guys are ever at the track on most practice days anyway. You mean they have to come to your office or have an appointment? If you guys are really serious about it and really doing it for the sport... The only parents you talk to is probably from other teams and already racing. And only the reason you talk to them is probably to sell them an engine or to get them to join your so call factory racing team.
What are you doing to develope the grassroots? Sell more rotax? Certainly you are not doing enough and neither is KKS. You really think any of you guys can turn up on a weekend where there is no races but only a handful of racers at the track and talk to people walking in about karting?? Not!!

Sorry James,
If you and KKS wanna talk about developement , grassroot level, more newcomers to the sport and other BS like love for the sport then go ask the My-kart boys how it is done.They are the real deal. No engines or chassis for sale, no race organisation confusion. Just karting. Love those guys.

Do you remember the piston port class with wood as tires?
All you guys thought it was a great class until one of the karters in this class who happen to crash early in one of the heats and went to sit on the grand stand to watch the race. Very soon he got bored and he realized that everybody around him was falling asleep too.Those things were so slow!! I remember the cadets on stickier tires were faster!!
My point is racing is always about speed, about competition and about sacrifice. It is always about better engines, better driving skills, more skilled and technical savvy people and more money.
You gotta differentiate with just wanna have fun and winning. You cant have fun and also expect to win too. But when you win always, it is always fun.Geddit? If you cant make the sacrifices to get that better engine or complete package and you are losing to those who can, then who are you to blame? The race organisers because the rules are not strict enough to ensure a level playing field? Dont think so. Even with a one make class, those who can afford and WANT to win bad enough will get better equipment like a new chassis every other race, new engine every race, better mechanics, more tires for testing, etc. You cant stop people from wanting to win.
The CIK races costs a lot more to take part because the people who races in this classes are people who really want to win and move up. This is where the winners are found. Yes, some of them are from well off families and can afford it like it is loose change.But there are also a lot who has won here because of the sacrifices made. Will you put your house on the line just to make the necessary budget? Are you ready to face the humiliation of almost begging money from sponsors, fiends, relatives so you can make the next race?Do you dare to take this risks and be thought to be out of your mind? Even I wont give anybody a single cent if he comes up to me and ask for money to go racing. First thought will be go away you fool, Go get a real job. Do you expect to go anywhere in this sport? If your answer is no, no and no then you can play with all those who think that getting to the Rotax,ROk or Yamaha world finals is like the top of the ladder already. I can tell you that you wont be going very far or very high. It is just a different playing field. Hell, they dont even allow CIK licence holders to participate in the rotax world finals in the first few world finals held. Dont know about it now though. It is like a football player playing in Malaysia champion team wont even make it to the 2nd division in the English league.
Get it now? For sure you wont find a Raikonnen, Alonso, Kubica or Fisi from this bunch. Hamilton did not impress Ron Dennis by racing in the Rotax world finals did he? " Hello, I am Rotax World Junior Champion. Can I be one of your drivers when I am Rotax senior champion?"
But if you wanna have fun and just enjoy the sport then that is all you gonna get. Not necessary winning but it can be fun. Who ever says losers cant have fun? They not gonna go anywhere thats all.

Sprocket I don't remember such an incident myself. People started to leave because of other reasons, and once there wasn't a big enough field I also left. It's still one of the best categories I've been in for driving.




Why then has F1 been slowing down their cars? Why has MotoGP made their engines smaller? Why is MotoGP considered the easiest category to drive while 125cc is considered the most difficult (and it produces the closest racing).




Why are so many single-make categories so popular? Why do non-single make categories standardize so much? Why is F1 using a standard ECU? Because it is all about minimizing these factors! You can't buy half a second at the Rotax Grand Finals. You can in KF1 (if you get in with the right people that is). Anything that one driver can get in Rotax the other driver can too. In KF1 this isn't always the case.


Odd concept there. You most certainly can have fun and expect to win. Hard work does not necessarily = not having fun.



Well, yes! That's the entire point of regulations - to even the playing field, and to minimize what one can do with money!



No you can't but in Rotax for example if you buy a new engine and chassis every round it doesn't mean you are on anything faster than the guy who uses the same stuff all year.



Why does having people who want to win make the category more expensive? Surely the regulations are the determining factor?


Sounds like you've been reading Carroll Smith .



What makes it so different? How is driving in competitive fields where driver talent is the main factor going to mean you aren't going anywhere? A fair few Rotax Drivers are doing a lot in single seater racing. So there already are examples where people are on the way very far and very high.


After a quick check it looks like from the past 25 years, only 1 Karting World Champion has made it to F1.

Have you checked Alex's recent thread about Rotax drivers in A1?

Guess what category of Karting Scott Speed has been racing this year? Rotax DD2. Quali results here for example: http://floridawintertour.com/points/events.php?runid=717906

yes KF is new and exciting. but my question is, how is the buying power in Asia right now?

back in the 100cc days, i already heard karters complaining on how the only the karters with money always have the best engines. every round new prototype chassis, fresh factory engines and special tires. how to compete with them etc.

i cant bet the same people wont like a similar story in KF.

ps. Mikko i dont think F1 is slower this year base with kimi new track record at Bahrain.

I really don't the "buying power" is there... why spend more to race in smaller fields with larger variances in equipment when you can spend less to race in more competitive fields with more equal equipment.


They always try making it slower but it just doesn't seem to work.

I was suggesting that Rotax engines be allowed for the KKS club races. This is because in the past Rotax Junior engines were not permitted to enter the KKS Formula Junior, which resulted in the class withering away completely.

For the RMC there are pretty good fields already so there is certainly no necessity to allow other engines.

same thinking here.

i love to race with faster engine, rev higher etc. but if the gird is less then 10, it will be just another Rok miss-fire. aka cancel series.

Rotax started off explicitly as a class for hobby drivers and I believe it still suffers a little from the snobbery of those who style themselves as "serious kart racers". in the initial years it focussed on Seniors and Masters. The concept caught on like wildfire. I, for one, got hooked and had my very first kart race when I was 50...

Over the years, however, Rotax has evolved and matured. Junior and DD2 classes have been added and included in the World Finals starting in 2003 (Junior) and 2004 (RM1/DD2). in a number of countries, especially the poorer ones, Rotax has become the de facto national championship. And at least one major chassis manufacturer now runs a professional Rotax racing team in the major European championships.

The best proof of the success of the Rotax concept is when CIK decided to copy it with the current KF engine classes. So it is unnecessary to knock a series that has become so successful worldwide just because it had humble beginnings.

.....

We need to ask what do we want from karting. For those who are looking for a career as professional racing drivers the vast majority would use karting as a foundation to learn the basics - discipline, hard work, race craft, set-up and teamwork.

A tiny minority may look at building careers as professional kart drivers but to be honest the chances are slim to nil for Malaysians. There are simply too few seats available and those who make it may find the financial rewards insufficient.

For those who look at karting as a foundation to becoming professional car racers what is needed is close, competitive racing at the lowest possible cost. They need to practice and race as much as possible and to learn from their losses, because losing will teach them a great deal more about the basics than winning.

In the Malaysian context their ideal path would be 2 - 3 years in cadets, 2 - 3 years in Juniors, 1 - 2 years in Formula BMW, 1 - 2 years in British or Euroseries Formula 3 and then 2 years in GP2, to arrive at the threshold of Formula 1. To achieve this - in addition to talent, skill, discipline etc - they need access to RM25 - 30 million...

So when comparing Rotax Junior to KF3 I would argue that Rotax is much better for preparing car racers. One Rotax driver may spend five times more than another but that would not guarantee a win simply because the money cannot be spent on buying more powerful engines. The driver that has the better grounding of the basics would win more often than not.

In KF3s the driver that spends more has a much better chance of winning with his mechanical advantage. The problem is when he (or she) loses the most likely explanation he will give is "my engine had no power". And thus he learns much less.

In this light the example of the Rotax Junior World Champion and Ron Dennis is a spurious one. Karting is only the foundation, it is what you do after karting (and access to a king's ransom) that will determine how high and how far you will go.

Let me put it this way, what do you think would happen if Ardigo went up to Dennis and said "Hi, I'm the KF1 World Champion so give me a McLaren?"

"Sorry you're too old and you're italian.."

We need to be realistic about what can be done in countries like Malaysia where there's only a small population of serious or semi-serious karters. It's fine for the big European countries with massive number of drivers to have multiple series and layers of events but in a situation where there's probably less than 100 licenced karters in Malaysia, having more than a couple of series is unrealistic - the ROC series was a good example - nice engines, some pretty decent drivers but it never gained the momentum to keep going.

The Rotax formula might not be as fast as the CIK formulas but does produce good racing (some of the RMC races in 2007 were fantastic) and is fairly cheap to be competitive. In most races last year I was within .5 of a second of the fastest guys in the senior class running a 2 year old chassis and a three year old engine that gets rebuilt once a year and has a quick strip down and new ring put in halfway through the season. Bear in mind I'm also 30 years older and 10kgs heavier than the seniors!

So, let's be sensible and not end up with another year like 2006 where none of the races, in any of the various categories, had more than 10 competitors. To get good racing, you need a decent size field, karts that are quick enough (and the Rotax's are) and decent organisation. We had all of that in 2007 and hopefully will again in 2008.

Having said all that, I do believe that there is room for an open class but as a few people have said, it should be controlled by weights. I'd go as far as to suggest that as well as having different weights for the different engines, we could also apply a DTM/Japan GT style "success ballast" to make the racing as close as possible.