[wanannuar]

To comment on the eligibility question. In 2005 the organisers had a weird rule for the veterans class that people close to the right age (or wrong age depending on which way you look at it) could run with us if they carried more weight - 10kgs extra. It was a stupid rule and I and others in the class protested about it. So, the rule now is very clear - if you're 32 on Jan 1st of the year, you can run masters. If you're 45 on 1/1, you can run veterans. A rule of "if you're close to 45 on 1/1" just wouldn't work. In any case, the veterans / masters run together now so it doesn't make much difference..

I am not so sure if the rule says "if you are close to 45 on 1/1" cos if it is the draftsman must be really incompetent. What would constitute "close to 45" is so subjective. I am quite sure the rule is the same then but relaxed for reasons best known to those in the decision making circle. As I said earlier when the reasons cease to exist the rule becomes clearer.

Again I stand corrected. Can anyone enlighten me on where I can get a copy of the regulations, FIA rules, CIK rules etc etc. It would be good for us newbies to appraise ourselves on the dos and donts and what you can and cannot do.

[JohnKing6]

The rule doesn't say "close to 45" - that's the stupid bending they did in 2005. The regulations are very clear - veteran drivers (to quote from the regs) "must have celebrated their 45th brithday by 1st January of the competion year". This is the standard way of implementing age rules and shouldn't be messed with. Would I be disqualified if my engine was 126cc? - I hope so.

The fault was in 2005, not now, when the rules were bent to allow some non-eligible drivers to compete, mainly because the grids were so small in the veterans. But now that the masters and veterans are combined, we don't have that problem and everyone should run in the class they are eligible for.

[James Leong]

I read with interest all the things that have been said about the race that has just been concluded. I will try to state as much facts as I know them.

1. The veteran class started in RMC because a few old guys including yours truly wanted to race among the few of us instead of fighting with the younger hot-shot drivers. The class catered to 45 years and above. The number of laps were 10 and in the final was 15 laps. This went on well for about a year and in 2005 as John has rightly pointed out, we allowed others to join in 'although not reaching 45 years but wanted to have some fun'. They have to carry an extra 10 kg of weight. In 2006 the veterans got better and they did full laps like the rest of the seniors. Adi took part on and off. This year Adi was not allowed to take part until he was able to get his braking steering sorted out. He acquired the steering from CRG and had difficulty in adjusting the pressure of the braking system. As a result he missed 3 rounds of the RMC. He managed to sort out his problems and he joined in for this round.

2. His request to join the veteran was turned down because in 2007, it was decided that only drivers who qualified for that age will be allowed to join. There were NO DOUBLE standards in all these as some of you impled. We did not see the logic of allowing someone underage to drive in that class and carry extra weights. At the same time there is also the Master class which Adi can joined.

3. For 2008, THERE WILL NO LONGER BE A VETERAN CLASS as I have decided to scrap it and everyone will drive in the Master class. The veterans are as fast as the masters, and they can take the full 25 laps. So why create a class just for 4 drivers?

4. Regarding sealing of engines. From today onwards, all sealing of rotax engines will be undertaken by Kartmore Racing Services - distributor for Rotax in Malaysia. I will now personally see to the sealing of engines. I wish to give you all ample warning on the sealing rules. Engines have to be sealed prior to the race meeting - anytime before registration on saturday. Sealing will be done at the SHAP office and will be done ONLY during office hours 9am to 6pm. If a competitor wishes to seal his engine on saturday, the sealing will be done by the scrutineers. WE WILL NO LONGER ALLOW THE RULE OF SEAL FIRST AND THEN CHECK LATER. IF YOU CANNOT HAVE YOUR ENGINE SEALED IN TIME AND REFUSES TO HAVE YOUR ENGINE OPENED FOR INSPECTION, my recommendation is DONT RACE. This may sound very harsh to some of you but I will not allow a few to have it their ways when others find the time and make the efforts to have their engines inspected and sealed on time. This is totally unacceptable. I regretted what happened on saturday but unfortunately I was not around as I was on a flight coming back from UK. I learnt about it on sunday when I went to the track.

5. Regarding the sealing of the cadet engine. This was done by KKS as the cadet class is under their jurisdiction. Reasons for DQ has been conveyed to the driver concerned and I think it is no point to bring it up in the forum.

James Leong
KARTMORE RACING SERVICES

[RocK]

I dont think speeding in the pits was or is in the rule book. So its the race marshals call. So if no penalty given, thats it then..

Thanks for the story Mikko..

[swamp-rat]

A couple of points in addition to what James has stated:
1. There is a distinct difference between the Veteran Class in the KKS Malaysian Karting Championship and the Rotax Championship in that the age for the KKS Championship has always been 40 and the Rotax is 45. Previously the Rotax Championship was organised by another Club and the KKS only took over the series in 2007 and the age ruling has been strictly applied.
2. I do not know if it would be a good idea to let the Scrutineers seal the Rotax engines on Saturday mornings as there would be insufficient time to strip down, check and seal them if a whole load of competitors decide to bring engines in on that morning. I believe that the best is still for the engines to be sealed before the event under the control of Kartmore and the KKS scrutineers will need only to verify that the seals are intact.
3. The engine seals that the KKS uses are made of lead and pressure sealed and are next to impossible to fall off. It is the onus of responsibility of the pit crew to ensure that the seal is intact troughout the race meeting and there is no excuse for the seal plus all the locking wire to be missing. The rule is quite clear and no seal means disqualification.

[Ryan104]

I would drive as fast as i can down the pit lane without crashing.... what is more important is to make sure there are no people standing inside the pit lane....that is what is dangerous. I think mikko was just trying to find the dry line in the pits

[James Leong]

Reference Swamp Rat comments on the sealing of the rotax engines.

1. Competitors are supposed to have their engines sealed long before the saturday of the race. If a competitor decides he wants to seal his engine on saturday, the scrutineer will seal it after it has been inspected. If it takes one day to do it, its just bad luck for the competitor who will miss the time trial, heat 1. Competitors have been informed to have their engines sealed earlier. If you want to do it on the day of the event, you take the risk.

2. You are right in your point of the cadet engine seals. To elaborate on sunday DQ, when I was asked to inspect the engine, there were NO WIRES, NO SEAL, NOTHING on the engine. If the seal was broken, it should have remained intact on the engine. If the seal has fallen off earlier, the scrutineer after the race would have seen it and not after the Finals. As this matter has been over and done with, I think there should not be any more discussion on this subject except in areas of improvement.

James Leong

[Mikko Nassi]

dont you want to share those things with us......? remember we are talking about race organisation here.

Mainly to do with why we can't race in the rain... but I already voiced my opinion to the club about this and have done so in a previous thread here as well.

Show me where in the regulations the speed limit is stated?

Lets hear what the regulation says another time

I've already checked the regulations and knew them as I came through the pitlane so there's no need to wait for another time. If you're interested you can download the CIK regulations in which the reference to the pitlane speed limit is made on the http://www.cikfia.com website and I'm sure you have the KKS and RMC regulations at hand. Combine the two and then my original statement of "I broke no rules so I can't be penalized" rings loud and clear. Next time if you're unhappy with a similar incident you can make an official protest and check the CIKFIA regulations as I believe KKS has a copy of them with them at the track and you can get me dq'd if you find the rule that you feel is there, there's no point in crying over it afterwards.

I saw a few drivers have to start from the pits to go on the formation laps... how slow did the drivers leave the pits? Did they go nice and slow? - I doubt it - should they also be penalized in your opinion?

I was at the pitlane most of those time and I can say, although subjective, that they were not doing as fast. Remember they are starting and pick up speed from midway in the pit lane compare with you or Imran, for that matter, who came with momentum from the entry of the pit lane to the exit.

I can assure you that they still went as fast as they can... if they didn't that was stupid, as it was of me to slow down as much as I did. You didn't respond as to what you feel would be a suitable punishment. A guy accidentally goes into the pits when a similar mistake would've cost him a second or two elsewhere on the track - drives "unimaginably fast" in some people's opinion, but loses 3 positions and about 10 seconds - do you think I should be DQ'd for going off into the pits or what's a suitable punishment? A few people asked me if I went through really fast and I said "no I actually lifted off a fair bit but shouldn't have." I have driven through the pitlane so much faster than I did on Saturday it's not funny. I'd also be surprised if ANY driver would've slowed down more than I did if they went into the pits accidentally. I though the incident was just a bit funny I had no idea people would want to have me further penalized.

Again you're asking for regulations to be bent

The regulation is already bent in a way when one engine is stripped whilst another is not so dont tell me that I am asking for the rules to be bent. Or is it called double standard which, now, I am told happens all the time. I must get used to that then.......

I was referring to the cadet issue and the age issue.. regardless of how many times rules have been bent in the past doesn't make an additional time ok so yes you are still asking for the rules to be bent, and in another case you are asking for non-existent rules to be introduced to penalize a driver.

I was there too, albeit watching, and I am sure that I didnt see the green flag. Damn need to check my eyesight again but then at least two other drivers also say the same thing........

Alright we'll have to agree to disagree here, I saw the lights turn off (which btw means race on - did you see the lights?), and I also saw the green flag at turn 1. The driver in front of me that raised his hand told me that he also saw the lights turn off and saw the green flag at turn 1 but was confused because he didn't see the green flag at the start/finish line. I'm surprised you're concentrating on the first corner flag marshall looking for a green flag rather than watching the race. I wasn't even looking for the green flag at turn 1 because I knew from the lights that the race was green and I saw it. Anyway it's a bit of a non-issue, almost all the gaps in that race were so big I doubt the confusion of 1 or 2 drivers at the start brought about any problems. Let it be a lesson to the confused drivers - still go fast until at least close to the braking area for turn 1 if you're not sure if the race is on.

Here are the regulations for the start taken from the KKS regs:

The start of the race will be given by switching off the RED signal lights. If the formation is not to the satisfaction of the Starter he may switch on the flashing Amber light indicating that the formation is to continue on one more lap and the start will now be the switching off of all the lights.

I don't see how anyone but the drivers can be blamed for being confused on the pre-final race start.

Anyway Mikko you need to tell us, the IT illiterate, how to use the quote thingy. Not sure if I managed to do it.

When you're posting a message on the left under "Options" there's "BBCode is ON".. click the BBCode bit and you'll find explanations on the quote function among other things.

[Mikko Nassi]

I would drive as fast as i can down the pit lane without crashing.... what is more important is to make sure there are no people standing inside the pit lane....that is what is dangerous. I think mikko was just trying to find the dry line in the pits

Yeh it wasn't dry enough though so I didn't do it for the rest of the race. The reason I slowed down was because I did see a fair few people standing in/near the beginning of pitlane - after that it was clear so I hammered it.

[Jules]

Great discussion but perhaps its me.....its getting a tad warm.

If my advise is of relevance, keep the replies clean as afterall we want to see our sport improve. We have to be mindful that we are doing this for FUN and losing that perspective means karting loses in the end.

Mikko, congrats - a win is a win. Perhaps we need speed humps in the pit lane? LOL

Jokes aside, we must also ensure safety is considered at all time for EVERYONE, even for the drivers. PERIOD, so let's see the replies & reponses in that light too.

[James Leong]

The latest CIK rules can be downloaded from the FIA/CIK web page. If you are interested in getting the 2007 CIK book, you can write to either CIK or Karting Magazine to buy a copy.

If you only want to go through some regulations you can come to my office. I always get a copy of the latest rules together with their quarterly Bulletins. If my office is too far and since your son is a licenced driver from AAM, you can go to AAM Motorsports office and read the rules.

I believe that anyone who is not happy with any rules or action of the officials can write a note to the Stewards to ask for a clarification. This is not a protest but a note to seek clarification of the rules. The Race Director, COC or Stewards can give you an answer. It is always better to have a clarification done than to have accusations, unpleasant words in a forum where everyone all over the world read about it.

I have always thought the forum would be put to good use to share ideas, discuss new concepts, improvement to the field of karting etc but the forum is now used to vent all these unpleasant things.

If this persist, then it is quite pointless to have a forum.

James Leong

[Mikko Nassi]

Great discussion but perhaps its me.....its getting a tad warm.

Yeah and as with James I agree it's best to deal with issues like this in a proper manner at the track (by talking to the race officials in a proper way). The forums are mainly intended to share information and talk about the racing, rather than complaining about things that should've been resolved at the track with the relevant officials. tbh though I've found the conversation here fairly interesting.

If my advise is of relevance, keep the replies clean as afterall we want to see our sport improve. We have to be mindful that we are doing this for FUN and losing that perspective means karting loses in the end.

And fun is exactly what I've been having at the past few race meetings... absolutely wicked racing! Side-by-side so often I can't even remember all of it, especially going side-by-side with Imran for a few corners was awesome, and then dicing with the guys that were on wets.... Even driving alone in the final was awesome because the track was changing every lap

Sorry if I've come off as warm.. I'm fine with everything in the thread so far, exchange of opinions as I see it .

[Mikko Nassi]

Championship standings have been updated and can be viewed here. Full results and lapchart etc. are on kkswp.mylaps.com.

And pictures from the event taken mainly by Yazid but possibly by Rosli as well are in the album here. Others please feel free to upload more pictures into the picture gallery if you had your camera out last weekend.

[wanannuar]

You are way out of line here Mikko.

If you recall.. my first posting was intended to discuss the race organisation and the response from the race officials which I found rather frustrating. You were by implication and inevitably the subject matter but if you notice that is the reason why I never responded to your request for the suggested punishment. The consequence will flow whatever it is but I have a bigger agenda. It was intended to be a follow up from the previous thread but sadly you have taken it out of context.

Why I say that we reserve the regulation for another day is because I am not familiar with it and need to look it up. Since you insist I have taken a cursory look at the General Prescription of the FIA-CIK regulation and Article 2.14 states " During the non qualifying Practice, Qualifying Practice, the Qualifying Heats and the races of the final phase, Drivers may use the track only.......". Another section of the same Article further states ' A speed limit may be imposed in the pit lane and in the repair area during practice and formation laps. Any Drivers breaking the speed limit will be imposed a penalty..........." Reading the two together necessarily means that drivers may use the track only and that, for safety reasons, speed limit may be imposed in the pit lane. Whether or not it is imposed is a question of fact. (due to time constraint I hope I got the right regulation and as I said repeatedly in the past I stand corrected).

I do not intend, at the expense of being confrontational, deal with the rest of your postings. However I suggest you take caution in your words and tone and not make it look as though I am after you. That is not so nice.

James, thank you for the positive and matured response. On the issue of the seal on the engine I agree that the regulation should be followed religiously. If a driver choose to do it on the race day so be it but at their own perils.

Anyway lets put the forum to better use. I agree that seeking clarification to issues is a better approach but the response we get, more often than not, is very frustrating. Ask the officials at the tent last weekend and you will know what I mean. On your offer for the FIA-CIK rules I will be more than happy to drop by your place for a teh tarik. I have been there before and I do not think distance is an objection.

The issues we have discussed would be better resolved at a forum with everyone present. Do let me know if you plan to organise something and I will be more than happy to pick up the tab. I am in motorsport and karting for the love of it and I hope to persevere.

[mym]

I had the Junior Heat 1, Heat 2, Pre-Final and Final recorded as well as the senior Heat 2, maybe the pre-final and also the final. As I forgot to bring the camera stand and also that some of the races were wet, the shots may not be as good. Sorry to the masters & veterans. I am not able to record all the races as I don't have enough battery power. I'll edit the videos that I have and will post it in you tube. Will include the links when I am done.